but welcome back hey it's been a long time since I've had my friend Jeff golden in the studio but he's now senator senator senator I have to say senator but he and I have done some shows in the past always the Joey a joy but now he's a senator representing Southern Oregon out of a sling and if the if the legislature up and say I'm good to see you buddy how are ya a long time you and I used to do a left and right show little bit a little bit of that it was fun and it's the immense possibilities your television show on public television oh yeah how many years to do that seven seven years yeah how many years on radio ten on Jefferson public radio on the jefferson exchange and that wonderful but that's not it so you put that together seventeen how long have you been in the media business well here in Southern Oregon be 36 years in August you know that's a lifetime yeah well you got back into politics why'd you do that well I am like many people really really concerned with the direction of things and with the kind of world we're leaving to our kids and our grandkids you know I am a you know if maybe I'll kick off the controversy right now I am a very solid believer that we have a huge challenge in the changing climate and that we have to do some really strong things about it Subin I also watched this country change from a strong middle-class country where if you were willing to work hard of chances were excellent you could support a family well and the plenty of opportunity to one where for some reason the wealth and advantage just seems like it's concentrated on the top end and people trying to build businesses people trying to get ahead find it phenomenally difficult so I didn't I you know years ago I don't remember you when you ran for Congress and I always had some interest there too but I look at that I go man that is crazy right now but then I you look at Oregon and you go well we've done some interesting things over the years we're a manageable size maybe and there was an opportunity course might my predator media pret Scizor but for ten years that my seat was held by dr. Alan Bates right who died suddenly right and then in a special election Helen de Bourgh from Ashland right won that and decided not to go for it again and I was really just encouraged I had been out of politics a number of years didn't think I'd get back in found myself with time and you know at our age or at least I look and I go at the end of my life and am I gonna be able to say my kids you know I I brought everything I could did everything I could and I didn't really feel that way yet so the opportunity came up and so you went in back in I interesting session to say the least a lot of controversy in this session what you take it was it what you expected no it wasn't personal the first couple months were when it sort of looked like a semi ordinary session I didn't really understand the intensity and the number of complex issues you had to process and you know every bill just about well I don't want that's not quite accurate but the issues that we talked about like the top twenty percent of the issues you can go into saying well that's an easy call I'm gonna go yes on that or no on that and then you sit in committee and listen to people coming up telling you things you've never thought of before so I I went away thinking you know the easy calls they've been done a long time ago you got it you got a way impacts there's never a perfect solution everyone's gonna have some impacts you don't want very much and and you compare that to the status quo if we don't do this and keep doing what we're doing what does that mean so it's taxing in a way I really really like and then it got obviously the Republican the Democrats got really alienated in a way that very few Dever seen before I certainly want to get into that but part of this discussion is that and you move forward here thinking about it the Democrats have had control of the legislature for a long time and as far as getting things done with the supermajority they're almost anything they couldn't do I mean you could just get it done but one of the things I scratched my head on is why is this always this complaint when you've had the power to fix it the Bizon done the way you want it done and it was going along pretty good until this cap-and-trade came along and and and I know you're very passionate about it and I get that and I respect your passion on it I may disagree on some points with it but I I respect the passion but in the meantime as far as the getting to that point where there was going to be a 22% tax gas that had the potential of going as high as 3 bucks down the road how in the world could you possibly justify that I want to challenge the facts on that area and I think part of this was some facts got circulated and repeated again and again and again and again that just flat aren't true well and I'll admit we don't know exactly we can't exactly project those prices because they would depend on without getting too thick in the weeds what and allow themselves for an allowance if you're one of the covered industries is what you'd need to pay or every ton of greenhouse gases you put it in into the air and there's sort of a complex thing around that but they're sold at auction and the idea is to kind of harness some free market sources to incentivize less and less emissions and and what how much gas would go up would depend on a price of which nobody can predict completely of what thank you but it did start at 22 cents you it the it would be 18 to 20 cents in the first year a kind of best projection is about a penny or two a year thereafter and here it goes so it would almost be endless but I guess the question I'm having is I just read an article today where the Portland City Grill is now filed for bankruptcy and the main thing that they did was they own about a press to 12 restaurants is that it was over the minimum wage things and as you bring that on down and you put 22 cents of gas 18 to since gas on people can we afford this I mean the very people you're trying to protect middle-class pay for that and municipalities in time will pay for that too which means your overall budget for them go up which means taxes will have to go up to meet their budget where does this end for some let me say a couple things one is we also had in the bill that you know this bill generates revenue from these costs that industry pays a portion of that goes to Oregonians of every Oregon driver offset the increased because Wow when you file your income taxes there's a gasoline credit and it's based on your ownership of a car in what county you live in because people drive on average different in different counties but it was on the order of again these are predicted numbers about a hundred dollars a year in a rebate that you'd get for gasoline now if you if you think of an eighteen or twenty cent per gallon increase gonna depend depending on what you drive how far you drive that's gonna more than cover you for some people not completely cover you for other people but there was a general intent in this bill that and you know nobody can say we know exactly how this is gonna work out to buffer people who could really end businesses who could really get hit by that that's something our opponents never talked about that those kind of measures let me go to a larger issue Perry if I'm doing it let me take a quick break yeah we're gonna run out of time with it I want you to come back and nail that down and the other thing I want to do is the Republicans said had enough they got up walked out but that that hasn't happened before that has happened before but it did still make the whole system and I want you to come in and we'll be right back with Senator Jeff Bolton just a moment okay welcome back delighted have with us today Senator Jeff golden in the studio with us and he represents Southern Oregon mainly out of the Ashland area he's a senator and the Oregon Legislature coming out of one of the most interesting legislative sessions is probably at the same time can we use the word interesting and we're talking about the cap-and-trade thing and how you guys came about I think there's great controvery frustrating the Republicans got up and walked out and we down here we get bits and pieces of it part of the complaint was they didn't feel like they had expression in the process you thought they did but in order to really stop the process they get up and walked out we've seen this before we've seen the Democrats have done it before it's not the nice way to do things but it did stop things but it also put a cloud over that whole building up there no kidding how bad was it it was bad and I kind of think things are broken in a certain way and it's bigger than Oregon we've got you know members of Congress who will not talk to each other will not be in the same room and rather they're right and it doesn't you know you look for positive signs going forward and they're hard to find and this time you as you mentioned we had a supermajority in numbers that's just for folks out there that means 60% be and where that usually most matters is in raising any taxes that it says in our Constitution you need a 60% majority so a 30 member Senate that's 18 people 60 minute house that remember house that's 36 you had the numbers we had the numbers but we have diversity among Democrats there are there are some who know no say no to that yeah right so it's the thing they walk out we're gonna run out of time but I want to keep the thing going they walked out it stopped everything so captain trey is not going to be seen it list in this session now you're in the biannual thing so you had to end by June 30th correct yeah you had to do that will you come back in a special session I don't think so I don't know the governor has mentioned it to talk about a climate bill yeah but we haven't healed the wounds that broke it the first time so I don't know by a special session would work yeah I don't either then the threat of the President or the the governor doing hurt herself can she do it I I'd have to be a lawyer to answer that my understanding is she's got very broad power when it comes to state government itself right so she could do a lot about state governments emissions mostly vehicles but when it comes to private sector my boom my best guess is there's not a whole lot she could she can't work as an individual imposed a tax on everybody No okay so that point of its mute yeah and so it's gonna be another year before you guys get back on the table with this yeah at a minimum and and you know the short session as we say even-numbered years 2020 we're gonna be in for up to 35 days starting in February mostly that's supposed to correct and revise the budget okay and not a lot is supposed to happen other than that the big argument here senator is the belief that there is a climate crisis versus those who don't think there's a climate crises and one of the Glaros demonstrations I think just the capital this seems all the trucks and the tractors showed up that was quite a day yeah you heard from rural Oregon loud and clear the residual of this could cost some members their seats people are upset about this do you understand that yeah I think people are upset both ways and when people I got to tell you my input from the Rogue Valley you mentioned my district it's Medford Ashland Phoenix Talon and out to the west about to Reggie Jackson kind of the most populated part of Southern Oregon was very mixed and even you know people would say well maybe Ashlyn's fort Medford's against it it wasn't that simple around a lot of yes people from Medford please do do this including a lot of rural people so there was sometimes just gets oversimplified but let me go you mentioned Perry kind of a threshold issue about are we in a climate crisis or not and I will say and I campaigned on and if I run again I'll campaign on it I have a really strong belief about that opinion that I think is well data based yeah the answer is yes that we uh and I think what Mother Nature has been telling us the last few years reinforces that not just our fires and smoke but you have trouble finding any part of the world that is an experiencing crazy weather that it's never when you admit at least of all the countries on the face of the earth the United States has made some of the biggest fastest improvements than any other countries yes and we are still the biggest per capita greenhouse gas emitters in the world yes to what you said and I think we got to go further ok so why isn't something else being done with the countries that are obvious well nobody's yet asked me to set policy for China or India want to try what we hear is gosh they're doing nothing but building more coal plants ok that's not true they're doing a lot of solar a lot of renewable a lot of changes in there ok and I think one of they are in I think one of the arguments here is whose science you're reading would you agree with that I mean you're reading one set of science books or Eisley reports I'm reading another set of reports Perry I think this is that we've arrived at the most difficult part we'll have in this conversation since you're a polite guy not going to throw anything at me I am one of those I know you have viewers who don't believe this who think the science is is settled as it's going to get not in the details not exactly how many how much of the percentage is human activity and the problem but in terms of human beings and our emissions being a major driver of these rise in greenhouse gases I don't think there's a real scientific debate anymore ok say I do I think there is yep and I think you and I could probably come up with your set of notes I could come up with mine we can argue over that my concern let me ask you this do you think the world's coming to an end 12 years I think absent really bold steps and it's gonna have to be national too for sure less individual states are going to do it we are going to have a miserable world to live in and enter 12 years what's it look like to you really hot and it depends on we are really hot I mean you know the the glacial melt is much faster than people thought we are seeing very wet cities right now and we're going to see wetter cities and in our part of the world that with that he comes dryer and unhealthier forests and in last summer times and in 8 or 10 years best I can tell and nobody can tell for sure but the trends are pretty clear and you know I think this conversation might be different in a couple months if we have a simmer like we did last summer and if you look at the last 10 years of temperatures the story's pretty clear and you look in other parts of the world 50 inches of rain in 24 hours in Houston even little things three weeks ago there was a day in Eugene might been a little longer in Eugene where the record heat for that date was set and it was hotter than ever before on that date by 10 degrees and you know again you can't say well this that days exactly because of this emissions it's not like that but in terms of us building a shield that reflects our heat back in a greenhouse effect yeah I don't have any doubts about that okay I don't have the time or the world with all the count of that I wanted you to have free expression on well thank you and III it's frustrating because this is where we get to an impasse a lot of ways because if you if it's not true if what I'm saying is unfounded I could put the produce some things out here that would show you that would at least stop your argument maybe not kill it but slow it down well I do understand there are PhDs out there yeah I don't agree with this you get that okay and I'm also concerned about that we middle class people are gonna be taxed to solve the problem well that has always been the the problem with big transitions it's because operations and as if they are going to their the the rapers of our culture financially and somehow you got to tax them but twenty-two cents a gallon senator affects all of us you know again again there is the bill does have that refund that's gonna keep psychical nothing it depends on your driving habits winter driving whose they're not driving a kazillion miles a day these days some people yeah and then the idea of this whole thing is to change habits you had to make say van pooling more economically feasible Perry I don't think we're gonna make it if we don't change our habits I don't there's the cost of action and then as of their cost of inaction and I think that's bigger your delight let's say I want to keep it going Peggy and write me back we can agree to disagree agreeably we've done that before yeah just find another way to fund it don't put it on me alright thanks for coming by thanks for today oh by the way his website Oregon Legislature dot gov forward slash golden that's website there's a lot of material about this bill and other things on that site all right thank you you