good afternoon everybody and welcome to this last session final session of the day and of the conference we hope that in this session we'd be able to look forward and try and marshal the discussions we've had for the rest of the day into an attempt at looking forward and looking into the future to see what might what possibilities there might be to have a movement forward in terms of security cooperation or new security arrangements in the Middle East and North Africa region we've got six speakers for this session the six speakers that you see on either side of me from different places and representing different while not necessarily representing but coming from from different perspectives perhaps and they're going to be addressing the topic the topic as it is given in your booklet you'll find and on the program is called bilateral and multilateral cooperation towards new security arrangements in the region so without much further ado I'm going to call on our first speaker to address the topic and the first speaker will be Mohammad assuit i who's professor at durham university from his name i guess you could guess that he's turkish but from Durham University and Muhammad's going to look at this topic but particularly from the perspective of how informal civil society networks help to build security cooperation and and also the notion of ethics and ethical imperatives when discussing the issues issues of security yep thank you very much I know it is the last session and Sunday and it's the third day everyone is tired and hopefully we can go through an enjoyable discussion at this very last minute as mentioned yesterday we had a session in our session the issues of civil society and non-state institutions and organizations and they role in security issues has been discussed to some certain extent it is it is important in there indeed bringing them and I my research as well indicated the importance of NGOs non-state institutions in establishing cooperation and collaboration between between the middle east states but also in the in the Muslim world and the importance of that and importantly how Islam as a social capital played an important role establishing that trans-border relationship between communities and hence establishing the grant for a bilateral multilateral or translator relationships that that's an important part I'm going to reflect on that but I thought one issue that has been missed in our debates or perhaps I missed that I didn't go to of course all the sessions we have in discussing security a lot around the state and we we are trying to reflect on the state and state behavior in relation to security issues in this state is the policymaker and they are the ones execute such policies on the ground creating security or non securities for that matter but at the same time one of the question in the in in the book that we have the values whether can we generate certain values through which establish some common ground and around which perhaps we can develop some cooperation and when I when I look at certain regional corporations we can see that there are certain grant whether economic social political or for that matter religion played an important role establishing these regional corporations in different parts of the world and in a similar manner perhaps GCC was such an attempt unfortunately unfulfilled Atem an incomplete project but I I felt that perhaps when we discussed securities age security we are sacrificing everything around the state but one important stakeholder in this the human beings and their presence is an is an important factor looking at how the security policy is perhaps should essentialize human and human well-being and they ate they ate their lives because what we see in particular in the Middle East the human tragedies are conducted on the name of hegemony of States whatever the states we have have been playing around on the human lives and those human lives those tragedies have been causing a lot of security issues in other words creates this dis embedded policymaking which does not necessarily reflect the realities of people the social construct of people on the ground creating this dis embeddedness and through which the tragedies unfortunately are occurring in everyday life in the name of of course securing the state or security hegemon ease of state XYZ countries and now they are trying to establish their hegemony is in Syria and they'll hide Germany's are causing huge insecurity and creating tragedies on people's life and therefore rather than very much focusing on indeed we have to debate and theorize what the states are doing but at the same time we have to go around and look at certain guidelines to Ravitch perhaps we can at the same time create certain certain policy suggestions through which perhaps we can impact through the civil society to make a difference and that brings us the the whole ethicality issues whether it takes ethicality whatever the source of that whether it is Islam secularism but whatever it is because the consequences of secularism regardless of the source of it at the end of the day essential eise's human wellbeing and therefore how we can utilize it takes the different forms of ethics at least in the civil society non-state organizations so that we can articulate I mean it has to be the part and policies of the states but at least in the NGOs non-state institutions how we can perhaps bring this ethical look and the worldview so that we can establish a common ground around the importance and Sacre sense of human life rather than the sacral sense of borders and states because through borders and states that we are unfortunately suffering and creating security issues in the name of those borders and States and therefore a human centered understanding I feel is essential at least it is essential for me to rule which to look at the security issues because we are compromising compromising human lives and therefore the ethical policy-making should be considered an important part of security policies and secure decision regardless of what is happening on the ground now I know most of you would feel that this is a very European understanding but we have to at the same time remember that realities are the products of utopias as well if we continue just a debate what the state are doing without considering how the future frameworks can be established to look into and that is perhaps something that we have to go one step further to look in to have new frameworks of looking at security issues is an important part and when I look at the common ground the ethics again whatever the source of that it is contest that if I tell you Islam of course Islam is contested the states are claiming Islam the non-state organization emerged in the region claims Islam yes it is but what happens in this is very much the Fuki the Islamic law approaches use the the morality how we can whatever the source of that perhaps bring that morality as an articulation of ethicality in everyday life to make a difference and that brings perhaps the importance of importance of civil society and non-state organizations because earlier as we have seen in 70s and 80s even 90s how civil society organizations in the Muslim world established those networks networks of organization going beyond borders creating these different channels of communication and establishing through the soft power that they generate establish a particular particular net they establish particular networks through which they connected people and through those connections that we have seen some positive elements and it was again the same identity around the same identity we have seen for instance of course unfortunately they are not terribly acting now but oh I see emerged through the civil similar initiatives as well as Islamic Development Bank and etc however the states have expanded their power they have occupied these spaces even the civil society spaces and civil society areas have been limited through the patronage created by the states so all those Islamic non-islamic secular institutions in the Muslim world unfortunately has been linked to the power and the policies of the state and the Earth's ability is no longer unfortunately there and because of the they have become unfortunately a part of the hegemony of each state in which they are operating and therefore withdrawing stake and creating the opportunity spaces in the civil society in particular to articulate this ethicality to establish this common ground for policy making in terms of security I feel is an important issue but the important thing is getting this opportunity space created in the past perhaps in the in the region those abortion spaces were much larger but now the expansion of the state has has unfortunately shank that area and therefore we have to look into how civil society can be reactivated and an important part and condition of that how ethicality in the civil society can be articulated to create a soft power to look into security issues I'll stop there thank you thank you very much Matt for that I think somewhat different look at the issue compared to the way we've been dealing with it as you say very very in a very statist way let me just apologize that I kind of lost my notes earlier on so I didn't introduce Mohammed properly so let me do that now Mehmet is a professor of Middle Eastern and Islamic political economy and finance at Durham University Business School he is also the director of the Durham Centre for Islamic economics and finance and managing editor of the review of Islamic economics and associate editor of the American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences just to get you give you a better perspective where he was coming from with his presentation our next speaker from a different continent Mohammed dango sitting on my immediate left and only geographically not politically ok if this was in the morning I would have expected you to laugh but clearly it's too late Mohammed is now kind of semi-retired consultant on on international relations he previously previously served as South Africa's ambassador to to Damascus and then South Africa's ambassador to Libya – to Tripoli in Libya he also was a Middle East adviser to the South African minister of international relations which he has now retired from and he's going to address the topic from the perspective of multi multilateral fora and and specifically the United Nations and why fora such as the United Nations are in the current state kind of inadequate to deal with the with the kinds of issues we're dealing with but I'll let him take that further thank you now I'm sitting to the left of you I've got act to the left of you having said that I think this important that we need to urge states nations and civil society to ask for the reform of the United Nations particularly the Security Council let me start off by using the Libyan example when the uprising in the BR started it was there quickly the US and the Western powers had gone to the Security Council and asked for a resolution of by any possible means to remove or change or save people under the right of protection of citizens the Libyan and contained the Libyan Society and allowed them not to fly unfortunately three African countries that voted with the Security Council at that time those three African countries did not vote with there would have been no resolution to bring about that resolution which gave effect to regime change now there was a possibility of an African solution to an African problem five African presidents was sitting in Mauritania ready to go to Libya there was a possibility of a peaceful outcome and not a military outcome that night the general secretary of the UN called the Moro to England president said to him you can't fly tonight the French are going to start bombing that means that from then on it was a military issue and not a political issue and we now understand why the French wanted to do what they wanted to do but I think what we need to actually look at is what is the alternatives is the regionalization of security things we have the Maghreb Union and the Marc Lieb Union unfortunately had gone along except for Algeria would the Arab League to request that this resolution be placed on the table the East African Union took a different position and the question when Senegal so sorry the West Africa mean when there's problems in Senegal led by Nigeria African security forces wonder stand by to ensure that problems did not arise there in the Sadek region where problems in the soot and the static regions were problems in Zimbabwe and the Southern African Development Corporation or the Sirocco region had gone in ensured that there was a smooth transition so I think the regionalization of security issues also becomes important again I mean for my own sadness I was in Libya at the time and should bear some responsibility I could have done more to prevent that but I think the saying is that the present is influenced by the past the present impacts on the future is relevant in discussions at this particular conference the region this particular region the MENA region is divided divided between States in states in regions and between regions the so-called Arab Spring in fact exacerbated the differences and the uprisings of adding an uprising without a plan for what would happen – that the US balance was an object was to achieve creative chaos what they did achieve was chaos nothing was creative about that chaos so we sit with the pleasant chaos and the recently beings destroyed the old institutions an example being Paul Bremer and the de-baathification plan in Iraq question is did the bath was fade into the sea or did some of them join Isis the South African plan after democracy was the sunset clause that guaranteed the employment of former Arctic bureaucrats one of the objectives was to unite a deeply divided society to endeavour to foster the notion of one united nation based upon the individual rights as opposed to group rights non-racial non-sexist and democratic a second consequence was the inclusion of all and then a exclusion of none that is important it is important that if any group was excluded at that point in time you could have created the conditions for the car for a fourth column to arise and that product column would have been armed and trained the South African liberation movement was led by visionaries they had the credibility and the legitimacy to facilitate ideas that may not be popular in fact is not maybe is not finding for popularity at the moment twenty years later populist are promoting narrow nationalist and at times tribal populist views we need to guard against and be vigilant that these views expressed to not become accepted political currency the requirements of an inclusive political social vision needs to be continually promoted in this particular region but we need to look at building blocks within the in and the world building blocks could possibly be by regionalization let us reimagine a Bilad al-sham or a sharp region that includes a province called Israel or by any other name that you would want to call it so that we can have a state that is a non-racial non-sexist Democratic state in the entire balada shop and this could be one of the results of ray of regionalization a region conscious of his Ottoman past and itself a bit past where people do not feel strongly whether the goth is called Arab operation a region where workers rights are respected and all citizens are equal before the law where the social good is available to work on that particular note I want to appeal that you actually reimagine where we're going to that we have a region or regions that are based upon values that have common the common good in mind and that is beneficial to all non-racial non-sexist and democratic including Israel in this particular region thank you very much thank you Mohammed following on Mohammed's stinging criticism of the French I will I will ask our next speaker to be Dorothea Schmidt Dorothy is the director of the Middle East program at if we the French Institute for international relations that's based in Paris she's produced extensive analyses of the EU and French policies in the region induced democratization political economy and regional balance of power dorothy is going to address this this topic from the perspective of how the French might view the issue of multilateral cooperation for the MENA region thank you for this very interactive moderation shall we engage in parallel monologues or dialogues afterwards I thought I might be interesting to enlighten you a little bit about what the French president says when he means that he stands in defense of multilateralism because actually it was oom supposed to be the topic of this last plenary session and this is one of the principles that has been formulated expressed repeated by the president constantly he's worried that the former traditional historical multilateral forest that we used to regulate international governance are now in a crisis and he wants to play a role in reviving them or reforming them and I think this is actually one of the first thing that you have to keep in mind when you try to assess many of my close friend policy his political program both at home and internationally is a reformist one he wants to make a difference he wants to be he wants to bring a new perspective fresh air he's an activist he's extremely energetic and he speaks a lot communicates a lot very controlled communication at the same time so I was actually really puzzled that he kept on repeating all the time that he wants to defend multilateralism because I think there is a potential contradiction with his obsession for leadership his willingness to be systematically on the forefront and to let me maybe not say impose his vision but actually at least make it clear that France is in the driving seat and it's it's needed constantly in any international negotiation and to advance the International regimes on a series of issues so the first point was to actually say that there's a very strong limit to this ambition that when you come from a country that is an intermediary power that is I think structurally declining if you take it in the relative terms but also in the absolute terms when you were a very important prominent member of an international organization a very successful one that is the EU but is that is now you know deep crisis if you think in terms of another multilateral forum that who do belong to this is a military alliance NATO is also an elite race crisis at the at the moment and at the UN we still have a seat in the UN Security Council but it's very much contested and the use that I think the French president does of the UN is extremely instrumental and is the case study here would be clearly the Seine crisis and I will talk about it in there in one minute so I think in fact Macomb does make more difference bilaterally than multilaterally but the thing he tries to do is to socially engage with everybody it's also an obsession it's a very that's very sort of devil tolian style diplomacy actually we talk to everybody we are central and we talk to everybody and support and to engage with everybody and but it's impossible to engage with everybody at the same time so you engage with everybody in a succession you know relationships and you connect people so that's this sort of successive multilateralism I would say prior to try and bring new institutions and one very important thing is that McCool said that at the end of this year he planned to bring together a big international conference for the commemoration of the end of the first world war where he would want to discuss actually global governance exactly he thinks in historical terms just like if we were in this this is very strongly structuring intermediary periods that follow conflicts the promise that we may be in the pre conflict now period so I think he's better at doing bilaterally connecting but he has multilateral ambitions now if we specifically look at security I see other small contradictions like what are the items we have in the basket first is arms sales France the French president is very much at the economic diplomacy and the most important element in his and most successful actually markets currently is the selling of weapons from France in the region which is of course a very evocative on the rice because of conflicts erupting everywhere and never-ending conflicts so if you stand for peace and at the same time she one of the most important fuel earth of the of this arm weapons market it's it's it's a little bit difficult to handle in the long term military engagement we have limited one Syria in Iraq we constantly express that we want to withdraw but at the same time when we realize that the Americans are really really on the retreat there's a sort of panic and Macomb goes on the French TV and says that he convinced Trump to stay in Syria and the next day the White House denies it and says that he got it totally wrong and today the French president also gave an interview to an important French newspaper saying that he was the one who convinced Trump to go for strike in Syria after the chemical attacks which is actually according to me just repeating you know the previous line and he wants to show that he is the one who talks in the year of Donald Trump and he is the one who does make a difference even in terms of military engagement in the region so and this means that the containment of violence in Syria is failing and at the same time you know this is the gimmick actually the verbal gimmick of the rhetorical gimmick of the French president is say at the same time now the most important line of mobilisation of the French is on the humanitarian front like we need to protect civilians we need to go for more responsibility to protect and we need to organize who may die in corridors it's a trap so where do we think in terms of effective multilateral forums working in Syria we actually are now balancing between the Geneva negotiations and the russian-iranian turkish engineer one and we don't know actually where to stand because there is a willingness to show that we can be invited in the second one any time which in fact acknowledges the fact that the first one is not working so again we have this contradiction and the final thing that i think is extremely important on the cern crisis is the sort of willingness to defend the admitted international rules on how to engage literally and how war has to be waged and this is of course the line of about the weapons of my destructions and going for the red line and then the chemi use of chemical weapons and there there actually there is a connection made with this grand project of an international conference on the type style of the post-world War One our conference so to conclude this there is a I think there is the awareness that multilateralism is needed in the minimal sense of socialization and we need to keep for for us active and I think this is extremely important because one of the discussions we had in in one of the workshops I attended yesterday was you have to go piecemeal to move towards new security arrangements but I think it's absolutely indispensable to keep the bigger picture in mind Thank You Dorothy Dorothy and we move on to our next speaker now Lauri Sophie the way Sophie is professor of political science and Islamic philosophy at the Hamad bin Khalifa University in Qatar and senior fellow at the Center for Muslim Christian understanding Georgetown University he is a co-founder and first chair of the Syrian American Council from 2005 to 2011 and co-founder and former board member of the Center for the Study of Islam and democracy Lou is going to address this topic from the perspective of the interrelationship between political and economic dynamics and how that interplay would could contribute towards security cooperation we thank you when we talk about security and security cooperation probably a question comes to mind and probably this should be the first question is whose security is it the security of the ruling elites is that the security of the regime or is it the security of the people is there the security of part of the population of the region or is it a shared security now if we look at the area we are focusing on as your region the MENA area one one important things about that region that the state in this region has gone through some measures of modernization but it is still essentially a pre-modern state of course I'm aware of the variance between one state or the other and when I say pre-modern I mean it's an autocratic state with localized loyalties in fact the Arab Spring has brought this picture to our attention is very clear loyalties are pre state loyalty is about ethnicity is about sectarian solidarity etc and in fact there is a security cooperation in the region currently first of all it's a security between Central Intelligence of different let's say with Eastern countries particularly in the Arab world there is a very high operation among security forces that are intended to keep the population in check against any demand for further libera libera of the political system or the accountability of those who are in power there is other security arrangement which has become very destructive you have now the security arrangement that is about inter conflict within the region we have this alliance of convenience of that as I see it between Egypt Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates that is confronting another alliance within the region between Turkey and Qatar and I would call it the same is an alliance of convenience because it doesn't have the main ingredients of what make regional cooperation work in the long run and that's not what we are expecting and what the people in the region want they didn't want security arrangements that would will fuel wars and conflicts but they would like to have an arrangement that keep the population secure against both you know external threat as well as internal threat and perhaps the most obvious one in these days and the MENA region is the ready call extremism or the armed non-state actors and I would like to save yours about that now I would like to say that first of all the threat in the region is comes from both the state actors and non-state actors there are states as we speak are trying to work together to quell the demands of people for further accountability of the rulers because many states in the region are autocratic you have currently this alliance between a number of states I you know can name them I should name them actually let's say about what's happening today between United Emirates Saudi Arabian Egypt in their attempt to stop all the demands that have that have came to the surface through the Arab Spring and that is not constructive the way it has been done now am aware that the Arab Spring also brought to the surface some very violent groups that have caused most harm to the population they reside and then than to anybody else I mean of course we are all aware of already six minutes okay we are all aware well thirty seven to forty three is never so we are all aware of what Isis for example or a news run other violent organizations have done to to make the life of people more difficult in this region and to hijack a genuine really attempt by the population to demand further liberation from autocratic rule so let me jump in the in the free – I guess is the three or two so two minutes I have and thank you in the two minutes that I have let me suggest a few few ideas that will make that will produce genuine cooperation for security and not a facade or security for the autocrats now one one thing that has to happen is the loosening of the grip of power by theater autocrats in the region and this is already happening I mean if the Arab Spring did anything good so far and say I think it has started something that it is difficult at this point it will bring better good in the long run it has loosened the ability of the autocrats at least in Iraq Syria Libya and and in fact it will so we'll be in Egypt for reasons probably I don't have to talk about and and that is very very very good now those autocratic regimes have created a lot of anger among the youth because of the suffocating conditions they have created in their countries both politically culturally religiously and economically so you have crony capitalism all over the place where only the elites got rich get rich and the people get poorer you have lack of expression in many countries of course I'm aware that countries like Turkey and Iran probably represent a lesser much lesser by some degrees even among both of this autocratic approach to to power and I hope Turkey would remain on that on that on that listening at autocratic rule so what we need in fact just to lessen the the anger is to channel that anger from being destructive as it has been the case in to be becoming more constructive and that would need to be allow some some space for the youth to work in civil society to build civil society that that that I believe we have now a very opportune moment because because of the fact that states autocratic states will not be able to maintain the semi grip because of economic conditions that we would ensure as as well as years progresses now one final point as the the and I think the first speaker alluded to we need I mean a security best security can be achieved if we can we can promote good normative consensus no security can be achieved anywhere in the world if some part of the population is suppressing the other part of a population or one state is trying to to prevent the development of other states and so everybody would be the loser if this condition will continue in the Middle East with no conditions but no exception and I think now this situation of worsening conditions probably will spread to Europe Russia and the other states because these countries are spending tremendous amount of money to maintain the status quo at the expense of the ability of people in the Middle East and particularly the Middle East and the MENA region from you know aspiring to a better life we have today a population of youth who are well educated well skilled but they don't have jobs they can speak their minds so I think it is it is imperative for any real security there to take those dimensions account and and Thank You mr. chairman thank you and sorry for cutting you off but we in Europe and I'm trying to shatter the the stereotype of African time so I had to rush you on and our next speaker will be que han bar 0k han is the director of the center for Middle East Strategic Studies in in Tehran he is also an associate professor of international relations at the science and research branch of the islamic azad university he was a research fellow at Harvard Kennedy and a post-grad research fellow at LSE the London School of Economics his work on Iran's foreign and regional policy the Iranian nuclear program and energy security issues has been published widely kahan will will particularly focus on the issue of bilateral ties in terms of security coordination cooperation and focus in on why it's important as well to strengthen national structures in order to to develop regional security arrangements Thank You Naima good evening I have three propositions the first point I would like to mention is the necessity of strengthening the national economic political security systems and I think in seeking to how to bring sustained regional dialogue we neither need to seek foreign you know solution nor seeking or regional dialogue which at the first step which I think would be rather impossible in a broader sense instead I believe that the way to regional dialogue ties and passes through strengthening national systems and this is coming from a simple logic and that logic is that there is a necessity of political consensus in the domestic discourses amongst the ruling elite so that they can somehow argue the benefit of regional cooperation or regional dialogue otherwise this will not happen in a public sense and I'm not talking about governments and talking about the people and a state and how the elites needs to bring benefits of unity of feeling the geopolitical stakes of a state so that they can argue in this regard and I give you a few simple examples for instance the the continued talk between Iran Russia and Turkey on the Syrian crisis is coming from this simple logic of national security benefits of course Iran and Russia from the beginning we're persistent on that and Turkey later on came to the game but the logic is very simple the connection between domestic politics and foreign policy principles and this so far as it goes I see a great deal of persistency and continuation with that because they can somehow mobilize domestic forces to the benefit of you know national security and national or even say national you know political economic systems or or I give you the example of the Iranian nuclear deal which was the result of the the great you know national consensus of the necessity of talk with the US so that you know the sanctions can be lifted and at the same time as strategic discrepancies between Iran and the West is resolved but unfortunately we see that you know with this Trump issue both are coming back and therefore the logic of not cooperating with the US and connecting with the deterring of the u.s. threats in the region which is very strong inside Iran or I give you the simple example of Saudi Arabia some believe that Saudi Arabia is doing this relative polycythemia region for the simple logic of institutionalizing its national political economic system by containing Iran in the region that the main reason behind that is to empowering the you know national system which which is understandable myself and this leads me to the second point and that second point is that you know the urgency of a strengthening national system is somehow connected to this regional connectivity and the agency that is coming from the region and geopolitical urgency that is coming from the region which was discussed intensively yesterday and this is because the fact that the concept of war crisis stability and even economic rules amongst the states and nations are somehow chained and we discussed this transformative characteristics of estates as the result of war and dealing with the crisis and I think that the nations of the region are somehow focusing to the fact that they need more responsibility from their estates and the nations are becoming more inward looking or counting on its own sources of power and this is this can be generalized in a way in the concept of regional connectivity and I can give you a lot of examples the relations between Iran and Iraq the relations between Iran and Turkey which is a great model that the dynamic relations and growing relations between Iran and Russia which is started by security equations and it is now extending to economic tourists social you know cooperation in a way I would like to say that how much you know nations are becoming more regionalized the logic that was mentioned just now that they are connecting with the states concept of regionalization and if we look at the last decade we see that a great deal of regionalization is happening in the region and the states are being forced to accept this concept amongst the nations in other words the nations and people are forcing the state to accept these kind of regionalization or the concept of regional connectivity and regional integration which has a great deal of geographical you know logic and at the same time economic groups that is being counted on you know national economies and i think this is important to be you know taken into consideration and this lead me leads me to my last point by combining this bio lat and multilateral you know cooperation which is the theme of the dis panel I came to this concept of Bayeux multilateral cooperation which was which of course I think it's an ideal you know concept but again I think there should be a great deal of economic integration at bilateral and trilateral levels and at the same time multilateral cooperation that is coming from this logic of strategic constraints of the states to deal with you know regional crisis alone I I see that you know out of a lot of challenges that came from regional crisis there was an opportunity and that opportunity is that the states are realizing they cannot go ahead you know alone and they need to put it in a kind of political solutions in a multilateral concept so I came to this concept of Bayeux multilateral order which is of course ideal and I get back to my first point my first point is that the way to regional sustain regional you know talks and dialogues passes through you know empowering the state national state system and I think this is important that every actor play its own role when its own geopolitical role to bring the stability and as a result of this accumulation of states as the stability that everyone plays its role its own role then we see a kind of you know domestic stability which is good to be generalized in the broader region and I think that if the foreign countries would like to play a very meaningful role it is better they supports the strengthening of national systems because at the end of the they will connect and we'll bring this you know you know national systems a kind of networks that can be at the benefit of the region and my last point in conclusion last but not least I think a stronger and stabilized the state will better go to regional cooperation and I think it was just yesterday that Joseph bah who'd mentioned about this dilemma of decentralization of the state in Syria which requires a stronger state to somehow connect with this concept and brings order so that we can further go towards regional dialogue as was exemplified by Joseph and I stop now thank you thank you Kevin and our last speaker for for this session which will then leave us with just over 20 minutes of discussion time our last speaker for this session is Filippo do Jeanne who is election of politics and international relations at the University of Bristol his research focuses on international relations Theory applied to Middle Eastern politics he's interested in international law norms diffusion and Islamist movements and is currently working on a study of the effects of the Syrian refugee crisis on neighboring countries and so Filippo is going to look at how migration effects negatively and positively security and security coordination in the MENA region yes thanks very much I'll be conscious of the fact that I'm the last speaker in the last session of the last day of the forum so I'll try to be telegraphic if I can and try to maximize the possibility for debate afterwards there's being the last one also there's a lot of things that have been said already I just want to highlight a couple of points with which I think I would agree the first one is that the most common conception of security that we often see at the policy-making level is very State Center and and military focused in most of the cases I think academic research has gone well beyond the idea of security and we now speak of security in much broader terms referring to security especially as concerns human security and the security also the communities of belonging of the to which this into which individuals belong to and I have a sense that we would greatly benefit if we starts talking about security and security cooperation at regional level indeed if we we will embrace that kind of definition of security and I'll try to explain you why in a few seconds before that I want to highlight another aspect that has been already mentioned there is a little bit of a myth about this region about the fact that cooperation does not take place in this region and in fact that is that is now entirely correct that is not accurate it's true that speaking about cooperation at a time in which conflict is so widespread and diffuse and devastating in this region it may seem ludicrous for good reason as a matter of fact but as a matter of fact again someone before me has mentioned how its security level into ministry of interiors and Mahabharat our intelligence in fact share intelligence at a regional level and that's and that's an important form of cooperation even though I would say it's not necessarily the priority we should be looking at right now at a social level to has been mentioned the fact that there are interactions that take place throughout networks and might be religious networks tribal networks but also ethnic groups that cut across the borders of states in this region therefore this kind of interaction constitute a basis for cooperation in this region that can be you know can be can be exploited in order to establish a more broader concept of of regional security if you want but the point that I want to emphasize as it's been anticipated by our church today is there also an economic level there is a little bit of a myth here too we keep we keep seeing two statistics about the fact that the in the Middle East states do not trade with each other and do not exchange goods with each other and that is true if we focus on one on a set of specific goods for example the reason being that most middle eastern states produced things that for they do not have very much interesting in trading with each other but if you look at one specific good that is labor for example we will see that as a matter of fact labor exchange in this region is important and in fact labor migration has become an increasing factor of exchange between these states which is why I think that migration can be actually one of the aspects upon which cooperation also from a security dimension may become relevant security here because we are speaking about people that is basically looking for that well-being while they migrate and they look for a job elsewhere and there is indeed an expanded conception of security one that is indeed more of a human centered security rather than being the usual military systems state centric conception of security by this I don't mean to say that that kind of security to them you know the most eccentric words is obsolete or unnecessary I'm just saying that there are more broader and complimentary views of security that needs to be embraced someone before me was mentioned about the fact that we need a greater designer the other of a greater picture to design and think about cooperation in this region I have a sense that this could be one way to start talking about this embracing of a larger conception of security in that sense the third point that I want to emphasize is that if we fail to do so so if we keep focusing on security and insecurity ideas that facilitate you know again the the selling of weapons for example the training of the militaries or the police and so on and so forth which again at what I want to say is useless but it can be complemented by greater conception you know more thorough conception of security if we keep focusing on that specific narrow conception of security what will happen is that any security arrangement that will take place at a regional level as a matter of fact we'll have the detrimental effect or I list at least I think is a detrimental effect of cementing the nature of the power in balancing the imbalances that we see in this region rather than moving forward and establish a more you know longer term perspective one that in fact takes into account what is the actual interest of the people that live in this region I'll at least I believe in the is the real interest of these people so it might be actually detrimental to simply use this narrow definition simply because what we will do at that point will actually and it will be an extension of the lives of autocratic regimes and hegemonic forms of domination that as a matter of fact constitute in the longer term perspective in a greater picture of things consciously as a matter of fact sources of instability for the region but also at a global level so instead what I'm advocating for example it is to start looking at rare phenomena like migration as I was mentioning I want to mention a couple of data because I think there is a lot of misconception in this sense but in the Middle East's now according to an IOM report of 2016 there are thirty four point five million migrants including this figure that includes refugees in that since 1990 is an increase of 150% of the number of migrants in the region so we are speaking first of all of a long-term trajectory of movement of people which for example the European Union in its member states have failed to appreciate because otherwise it would have had a little bit more of a more prepared stance in that respect but we're speaking about a phenomenon there obviously has a very significant relevance in that sense and I conclude that's why I think migration not only is something that benefits the states that send migrants for the revenues but also because those who migrate as a matter of fact can access better job markets in most of the cases but also because those states that import migrants and I apologize for this commodifying conception of migrants they're actually sets that need those migrants one of the group you know biggest economic power of the region Saudi Arabia is the recipient of ten million migrants and other states in the Gulf again are the host of an enormous amount of migrants in that sense the other angle the other issue that is concerning distance is the fact that refugees have increased dramatically for reasons that I don't need to mention in that sense and those states who host refugees are providing a public good at a regional and globe eleven and therefore there should be supported for the effort because the effort first of all benefit the very life of refugees themselves but second of all is also positive repercussion at the regional level because as a matter of fact the fact that they host refugees that give them a house they give him a job sometimes and they make their live livelihoods possible as a matter of fact he's a good that is not only for the refugees themselves but is also repercussion at a regional level so again just to reiterate my final points we need to conceive security in broader terms and we need also to look perhaps at the case of migration as a starting point to rethink regional architecture in terms of security for this area thank you thank you very much Philippe oh and thank you to to the whole panel for for your inputs I think that were very valuable even though coming at the end of the day I'm going to open the floor for discussion now questions comments you have two minutes to ask your question or and make your comment and please if you're asking a question identify who you want to answer the question if you don't I will and when you start please identify yourself thank you one two three yeah can we get a mic please like there's I'm going to throw out a question for everybody on my platform looking into a crystal ball things look incredibly bleak the question of security arrangements appear to be top down apart from the first speakers reference to civil society and I want to take that up but the question isn't simply to you you see what is missing and I do I say this with great respect I'm not eating out here is the people the Arab Street so if we look at the history of the region try to look at it as a non Arab at the tip of South Africa of Africa one does note not the Arab Spring of a few years ago alone but the risings over and over throughout the region from the people and that is acted as a tremendous impetus for national movements and struggles against sykes-picot of a hundred years ago and the last thing any region outside United States and Europe once is the interference of the former colonial powers by the way but I asked the panel what they feel is the potential of the popular movements resurgent again the Arab Spring turned into something of the nightmare and the people were pushed out of the way the tree forces their mistakes apparatus etcetera but to Monsieur has survived so the question is when we look into the crystal balls that we what is the prospects surely there are prospects and that the challenge for us I believe is to encourage this thank you Thank You Ronnie Ronnie didn't introduce himself Ronnie Kasrils from South Africa rabble rouser yes and it'll disciplined because I asked him to identify one person to answer his question but he didn't the South African axis yeah professor asitane may I provoke you I think you romanticized the role of NGOs and civil society a bit so in an academic sense does the Classical Age alien distinction between the public and private sphere exist in the MENA region I asked this because my sense if I may use the neo-marxist term and was Marxist birthday yesterday is that the state is over determined in the MENA region it's over determined in the sense that the public and private sphere is deeply fused in the anatomy of the state and if you extend that metaphor there are very few arteries that will allow oxygen for associational life and the few empirical examples you give a hardly persuasive so it's a skeptical view and I wonder if you can ski if you can kill the skeptic down there at the end of that row please can you put your hand up yes thank you I'm actually non-arabic but I'm from Bangladesh starting here international into P so as like kind of neutral since I want to ask like the case from Iran and forgot the name but at the right side the top blue a Sophie like he said that like what's the security is it about state or the humanistic approach I don't want to sound like realeased or idealist but like middle neutral view I want to ask like as the main player of MENA region or Middle East as so they are Iran or to key as we can say we can understand some of the roads so they are play but for example Iran or Turkey the role they're playing in Syria I want to know their opinion or what – the thing about the rule for example what about like the popular rising or the like democratic Islam we see we see for example the rise of extremists – main reason I think was people because there was no middle ground for the popular opinion or many people they didn't have the political ground so that's why they turn to extremism so like I was seen in Syria Turkey play tried to play to like help to those people – like and give try to give ground but we've seen Ihram also tried to give popular democratic rights they want as in Libya or in other countries being happened they help the people who wanted democracy or who wanted like freedom but in serious case they were kind of confused so thank you thank you yes sorry just to the speakers I'm gonna take a whole lot of questions so please make notes and then you can respond thereafter yes kind of the label in the region as pre-modern I think this is so generous to pre-modern because pre-modern regimes used to be less able to control and suffocate societies as we today are able to do that and I think there were much more room for social support networks and institutions that allowed society to prosper and I think much better way than we're allowed to do so yeah that was just my car thank you yes down here please and after this is anyone else that once sorry he's going to speak in Arabic so those who don't understand are we please put your headphones on and is anyone else that yes there's one there and one there okay I'll take those two as well first of all thank you for allowing us to participate this approach you have is very nice in the Arab world we have revolutions and people who aspired for change who have provided and sacrificed for this and we have this thought thinkers in the art world and the question is maybe for mrs. Dorsey it's about that all of the great powers in regard to this those uprisings and the Arab popular movement is it possible to have the Arab uprising and the aspirations of the young people is it possible to be only stopped just for selling weapons don't we have up an opportunity to have a good relationship between great powers and the Arab nations where we keep the interest of those countries as well as enabling those countries for on the nations from living in peace thanks Dorothy I'm concerned about the role the French display in these particular respects it's a little confusing and you might help to clarify I'm taking off from the point when mama Dongo explained Oh informants about the role of France in leading the strike in Libya and if we have watched the Al Jazeera documentary on the 8th of April again the role of French or the France in you know in the Libyan Malian region looks also quite complicit and it is worrying now we have had a new president and we think along with Germany they're the more progressive leaders of Europe they're fighting to maintain that kind of age of multilateral and to quench populism and try to come up with something but at the same time you know what we see on the ground doesn't quite match up to what we hear when they face the press the press you might the two of you help us to clarify thank you thank you and the last one day from Syria I want to ask a big question now the Islamic region in the world is not a small part of this world so I think is have they have a right to have a permanent member of Security Council's and it's very important and this the first part the second part I'm asking about the big countries in this world reached to stand to standard of the weakness in the economics that use in their countries so they tried to create the Arabic spring to change their statues and their countries by the selling the weapons and make this statue in Arab words Thanks thank you you didn't put your hand up but it's okay just I guess trying to understand what maybe in fifty or hundred years whatever the case will people in the future just from your opinion do you believe that there will be a winner between you know the Sarah the UAE axis and then maybe the Shia expansion phenomenon and on and it's proxies is is it that simple that in 100 years from now simple states in the Muslim world in general will have to answer or will have to act with an on or SAR the in the UAE in the back of their mind just like today for example Egypt acts with the US and Israel in the back of its mind you know that kind of player that the United States has been or Russia and the Soviet Union have been in the region I do believe that for example 100 years from now the West will no longer be as entrenched as it is in the region and I'm asking you is that going to be replaced by one or the other is there going to be a winner thank you okay I'm going to allow each of the speakers about a minute minute and a half to respond to whatever questions they have and if they don't want to that's also fine I'll start on that end and and work my way down okay thank you very much I think South African case is an important case for us to look at in terms of secret is Asian of State for you removing the violence of culture was considered to be an essential part of say criticizing your sacred ization of state but somehow in the Middle East everyone thinks that creating the culture of violence is the way of securing the state and therefore each country seems to create this hegemony is over the other people's land as we have been seeing in Syria and Yemen unfortunately creating this culture of violence as well as within the countries and therefore I'm not sharing my colleagues idea of even making the straight state stronger in the Middle East can be a solution for stability and and synchronization that creates the problem we have to bring the state back and therefore my colleagues question I guess my position was not clear now in the Middle East you don't have civil society and whatever the civil society we have had unfortunately has been terribly instrumentalized in the hegemonic positions of the state as we have seen in recent years each country dominant countries in the region has been using further Islam to extend their hegemony over the Islamic civil society as well including in this particular country and therefore civil society the opportunity space whatever small existed has been wiped out in the process so somehow she also said has been utilized to further the interests of the hegemonic powers in each country and extend with the nationalistic discourses develop to others but despite that despite these patronages and the why part of the operation space of civil society I feel that there is an important role 1970s 80s perhaps there were some opportunities spaces for civil society and we could see in particular is Lama canet work how it worked to extend the cross boundaries create that soft power and cooperation between different countries in in a non-state level and I'm a believer of civil society however that definition and the removing the state power from the civil society democratization is an important part of the story ended thank you Philippe oh yes thank you well I was just right or some of the points I was trying to make perhaps but yeah I don't think the kind of ideas that were proposing were were necessarily top-down my sense is that there is still a degree or a possibility to look at patterns of cooperation within the region that starts from the really are the realities on the ground and perhaps following up what Professor wrote as I was mentioning there is a lot of horizontal cooperation let's call it like this at a societal level that can be bought they can be built on and and you know even state actors and governmental actors can appreciate the fact that there is also in in their interest and there are benefits from it that can that can constitute a basis for cooperation in in security terms where the concept of security again as I was mentioning is understood perhaps in broader terms terms that include the fact that most of the people of the Middle East after all does not necessarily go to war most of them actually wake up in the morning make a coffee and then brings the key to school and they go to work and that is security that is normality and the capacity to reproduce that kind of way of living constitutes an idea of security in broader terms the one that should be preserved I think more importantly or together with States enter the militarized conception of security thank you Filippo I'm interested in the question about democratization and the the fact that we all address the issue top down because I'm actually worried about the the Europeans treat not only the Arab straight and if you think in terms of contribution and engagement of external powers in the region let's be realistic we do engage either because it's a projection of former colonial power it's a potential of power or now it's moving more to the idea of containing the threat that we feel is reaching us targeting up directly at home and this is where actually I can move to the other question about why doesn't make her look more progressive probably he has to solve this sort of impossible equation of being in defense of maternal the early son being a progressive he supposed to be a leftist by the way we're not that sure this is hard to be debated but and at the same time addressing the very specific feeling of secure of a threat of physical threat that some of his citizens have a have at home so this has brought forms to more military engagement both in the Middle East and in Africa and we know we cannot work on our own there so the next data the next variable that is very difficult to processing is with whom are we going to work on that and now we have a problem with that our traditional lies specifically with the US and I think this is why all so many of my crow shows an obsession about Donald Trump saying Trump is doing what I tell him to do it's not of wishful thinking you know so but the idea is definitely not to engage more militarily in any front to reform French foreign policy in order to do the adjourn amento this I think this is very really the background inspiration of Emily McCall he is a young new president and he understood that he has to do this upgrading updating and upgrading of his vision of the world so I think there is hope that he will engage with new players new partners but he's sealing a sort of Observatory around now thank you the Legion suffers from two basic problems one is the curse of resources the other one is the end product colonialism and the influence of the colonial powers and within that I think if the region reimagined itself looked at regional cooperation rather than containment they could actually move forward if Africa can do that to a certain extent I'm sure the Middle East can do that is to move beyond into a regional cooperation but rather than relying upon client or patron states that will actually come in we take the recent event in Syria where without the UN Security Council resolution the French the Americans and the British decided to bomb Syria what were the can damage of the world who decides upon what values is good and what what values are bad who decides who's done something or he hasn't done something the ICC is not prosecute anybody for the war in Iraq and other words that were brought about so I think the double standards that come from the West needs to be re-examined and the West needs to the examine itself about values and how they take things forward thank you I think in addition to a lot of original you know commonalities and cultural economic issues we should also value the element of geography I think geography matters and geographical connectivity is very much important I'll give you an example for instance Iran and Iraq just last decade where two rivals and they had a war but today as the result of geographical connectivity and huge exchange of economic and social socio you know exchanges there is a great potential of you know connection between the two and and and it goes to Turkey as well I think that the value of regional integration should be taken more seriously and this comes from geography and that somehow focuses on on the factor that you know the people and countries with you know same destiny geographical destiny can better work and cooperate with each other so I think this is also very much important thank you anyway I will briefly address the three questions that were posed to me with regard to the role of Islam and the the impact of the turkey and Iran on the Syrian situation I think posed by my friend from Bangladesh well I believe that you know Islam is central to cultural reform in the Middle East no cultural reform can be undertaken with that is then being the moral foundation unfortunately till now Aslam has been used as a political instrument by both the state preserves tastes autocratic states that call themselves secular but really they are dogmatic and then by by the opposition which is Islamic but also as dogmatic because the heart of his time is about those universal principles about about respect over human human life human dignity is about caring about the the weak and etc now now in terms of Turkey and Iran in fact it is it is also said that the historical rivalry and the sectarian you know dimension of that rivalry has impacted negatively and it could it could spell disaster if the the same impetus and it was continued to – uh – I don't have much time to say more about that but I think this is not the way something has to happen between these two countries because they are the only independent countries relatively speaking in the region everybody else is is a still a pre-colonial States meaning they have by rate law bilateral support from from previous colonies or their the replacement like that United States and so they cannot act on their own in terms of the not doing justice to pre-modern state I agree with you really there was more freedom and less repression in the pre-modern state but what I meant I was very brief in fact what I meant by that that the form of organization of the state the modern state in the mean MENA region particularly the Arab board is still function on the Prima pre-modern loyalties like tribal sectarian ethnic you name it so it is it is exclusive there is an exclusive system where only one ethnic group one sect one one you know so they are trying to dominate and ignore the dignity and the rights of others thank you finally in terms of the last question very briefly will be we'll be winners among the in this in this war that really that's that's around Saudi Arabia and Iran and both really are sectarian in their approach to the region I think both will be will be losers and the whole region will lose a lot if the dynamics don't change there must be some cool heads to try to change the dynamics unfortunately radicals on both sides are driving both the narrative the the discourse and the actions you know those in the middle are silent and unless they are mobilized and I hope this will come from next generation this will not happen and I can say this finally about this this conflict and this approach bye-bye Middle Eastern and their backers is going to bankrupt those estates I mean those days cannot thrive by trying to fuel the same thing that almost destroyed Europe before it came back to its to its rationality and said okay enough with with war fighting then can and so I will not only locally but I think United States is going to drain out because using that huge military apparatus to keep people in check and and and preventing them from realizing their their inspiration this is not a recipe for success for anybody thank you with that let me thank all the speakers on this panel for very interesting inputs and diverse group or diverse set of of contributions I'll release them from the platform so that they might take this seat and why are they doing that ask gallop to join me up here so just for a few minutes we can just close the conference well we are overtime so we're going to try and rush this and and be as quick as we can first let me just say that I think that over the past three days and including today as a separate day compared to the other two we had a number of teams that came out that I think are crucial in terms of our understanding of broadly security within the region and in terms of where we might be going one question that came out repeatedly certainly today repeatedly since this morning was the question of whose security are we talking about and I think that certainly those of us that that that attend these kinds of conferences around security know how easy it is to get stuck in the criticism that was made in the last panel to get stuck in a kind of status framework and so we end up talking about security as by talking about stability and talking about order neither of which is necessarily a good thing I think that if we want to talk about security of human beings and of people in this region then perhaps we should be cautious about how much we use the words order and stability certainly in in 2010 2010 before December I think that we had quite a stable Middle East and North Africa region and good order people who were really kept in their place and I'm not sure that that is exactly what we want and so that question of whose security are we talking about is a crucial question and the question associated with it that was raised again in the last panel of what kind of security we're talking about are we just talking about security ministries military and those kinds of things are we talking about the lives of human beings and whether those are comfortable lives those are perhaps sometimes separate questions from our perspective as as the organizers we're now talking about after three years of these conferences or three of these conferences one each year talking about perhaps formalizing this conference as a forum that occurs on an annual basis but that occurs as something more than just a conference on an annual basis and I think that Gallup over the past three days we've kind of been convinced that having that discussion among ourselves is a worthwhile discussion to have because because of the responses that we've been getting from people who have participated I'll leave Gallup to make a few closing comments as well before we express our thanks to a whole range of people thereafter well thank you very very much I will keep it as short as possible after these long a tiring days and first of all few words of gratitude to America from Italy Center and the exactly the director named Gina and also the team's miletti and all others like you know the member of the teams for making this a possibility and also a success this has been as I said like you know it this has been a quite fruitful journey where we started and where we are right now is a quite of a distance I believe that we have traveled as I said like when we first started in 2016 it was exclusively focused on violent extremism and some extent actually violent sex extremism obviously and naturally is the problem of the region but the way that it has been discussed the way that it has been debated at some quarters reflects more the interest of the third parties or the extra regional poles rather than like you know treating this issue as a regional issue with all its dimensions and last year and these years the discussion has become much more comprehensive and much more in detailed and also right now the exercise often Minds when it comes to recommendation and solution has become much more all solid as well true it's still not where it should be it's still not like you know what it can be as well too because thinking of the region and discussing region in a positive with that positive agenda is not something we use for it because the region has also we sat back in the morning is very much we used to discuss the region through the lenses of prices but nevertheless more and more the regional discourse will be shifting towards a true s solution perspective as well – and in this part in yesterday the two days of the closed sessions there was some very very eye-opening and quite insightful suggestion remarks analysis of the situation and when we turn this into reports it will become actually much more it will become much more concrete and just keeping it as a discussion and as and this all these reports will be shared with all the parts it spins here and also like you know it will be shared with public as well true and with all other interested parties as well and as name just has said perhaps from now on it's not only the discussion will be whether we need or not a regional security arrangement or in the region security architecture the major discussion will be like you know what should be the nature of it are we talking about the integration of the structures the cooperation of the structure or state or are we talking about like you know the interest of the constituency like what level what is the unit analysis of the regional integration perhaps it will be the most fundamental issue that will be discussed and also the premises of it is it just like you know the and cooperation and integration framework that operates with the interest of the elites or cliques or rigid or is it something like you know that will be driven by certain values and by certain interest that is much more widely shared so with this I would like to thank you one again and also I would have to think quite a large group of the people who made this conference is a success I would like to thank up to LA a block master who has been leading this event tirelessly I would like to thank through this Omri you have been in touch with her she is one of the success story of all share firm would like to thank Abdul Rahman Denis Khadija aya Mustafa Marva astre Mehmet Emin rwan Rosen saman Pannell ever Bahia Mohammed knew and fatty and obviously once again we are very very grateful to the Afro Middle East center I mean here miletti is with us nurse Lee it has been great and obviously the you know our special word of gratitude to the presence of all share form as well to each das what da comfort who basically facilitated this debate and discussion and the conference from the start and made it like you know possible that it goes where it have achieved so thank you very much for joining us and thank you very much for you you